Why are we doing this, anyway? (An irritated Gryphon rant)

[crystalgryphon]

(Note: This is not primarily aimed at Sakura-Crisis . . . although I wouldn't be surprised if it resulted in my being banned from the board anyway, although the staff here generally aren't vindictive. Well, if that's what happens, so be it. I'm tired, frustrated, lonely, depressed, and a bale of straws have just dropped on the camel's back and squished the poor beast like a bug.)

"All of our releases are labors of love . . . intended to make available titles that would be otherwise unattainable."

That's part of the mission statement from the website of a particular scanlation group that has a very restrictive policy on by whom and in what manner their releases can be (re)distributed. (No, no names--"if shoe fits, wear it.") Basically, judging from their FAQ, they don't want their stuff being passed around outside IRC. Period.

Would someone please tell me how the fsck this is supposed to be compatible with making otherwise unavailable titles available, since it means that some people who want them will NEVER BE ABLE TO GET THEM? Chances are that they won't even be scanlated by another group with a less restrictive distribution policy, because of the tacit gentlebeing's agreement between groups that they won't step on each other's toes.

People like this need to stop and think about why they're scanlating in the first place. If their work is genuinely a "labour of love" intended to publicize the manga and widen the audience for it, they shouldn't be restricting distribution. At all. YES, it's unfortunate if some distributor doesn't credit the people who originally did the work of scanning, translating, and editing, or (even worse) claims credit in place of them, but even these distributors ARE WIDENING THE AUDIENCE FOR THE MANGA, and that's what it's supposed to be all about, right? Asking for credit is reasonable; DEMANDING it means that egoboo is more important to one than publicizing the work of the original mangaka; halting one's translation of a title because someone is distributing one's work without permission or credit (yes, it's happened, want me to name the group and the title?) is beyond childish.

Granted, there are a few sets of circumstances under which it's reasonable to ask someone not to distribute one's work. First of all, it's reasonable to take any action necessary to stop anyone from redistributing a work which has been licensed for translation by a real publisher. Much the same goes if anyone is trying to charge money for a scanlation; that's money being stolen from the original mangaka. And finally, if the work is permanently available from one's own site via unrestricted HTTP or FTP download, so that anyone with a web browser can get it, no other distribution points are needed.

IRC and bittorrent are NOT acceptable substitutes for HTTP/FTP. IRC is, simply put, a very poor method of distributing files (hardly surprising, since it wasn't intended for that in the first place). Bittorrent, for technical reasons, basically causes every downloader to broadcast their identity (or at least their IP address, which is usually traceable back to a specific computer) to everyone else using the same torrent, including any copyright owners who may have wandered in. In other words, it's more legally risky for the downloader than ANY other method of downloading--normally, the copyright holder would have to at least subpoena the server owner to find out who's been downloading.

I realize that some sites have bandwidth constraints, but this is why offers from other people to host files should be accepted eagerly rather than mulled over, and furthermore there are under- and un-utilized distribution channels that might be able to help ease the pressure. No scanlation group that I know of actively distributes via Usenet; Certhy is the only one (again, that I know of) that has ever used a metered FTP, there are sites that will temporarily host large files in return for advertising . . . well, you get the idea.

So what are the sites who go out of the way to *not* let people download their stuff REALLY doing this for?

Gryphon, tired of sites that play the "we have it, but you can't get it" game and of working on the Fanfic That Just Won't End and . . . just plain tired, really.

[Shia]

ok, it sounds a lot like the "no names, but we're talking about nak..*coughcough*" game, therefore sorry if I got the guess on the scanlation group wrong:

allow me to add a few of my thoughts to your post (and use your imagination, for there will be a terrible amount of grammar and spelling mistakes, it's been about a year that I had to write something in english ^^;;;;; )

1.) if we're actually talking about that group, they started some sort of distribution via their yahoo group. didn't follow the details of the whole story though, but it seems to be a nice step towards http and a good thing for all their irc hating fans.

2.) scanlating manga seems like a hell load of work for me, and I really really adore all the scanlation teams for going through the effort and getting nothing much in return. (well, maybe the "omg, I love you for scanlating XYZ!!!! you sooo rock!!!!1 *heart*" fan mails, but hey, I'll take a guess and say that all the "you're beeing an arse about your distribution policy, I hate you!!" mails will somehow spoil the fun about the former, so maybe it's equal to nothing what you get for doing all the work)

3.) I for my part started to use irc because of the veeeeerrrrry strong need for nakama yaoi (... not that we talking about nakama here, just that I started using irc because of them... [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] ) and that seemed to be worth the effort. I so totally agree with you that that form of distribution is among the most "non-user friendly" things I happen know, but there again, even though it's a crappy way of distributing, it works somehow, I get to read my yaoi scans at the end of the day, so what.

4.) the point why I'm actually writing this: it's their work, they have the very right to distribute it any way the want and try to stop people from any form of distribution they dislike.
they did a hell of a job, they have the right to be a bitch about it and even though people dislike that, they should accept it.

5.) all the "we want to distribute titles that wouldn't be distributed otherwise and scanlations for EVERYONE!!!! ... who uses irc" thing...
weeeeeell... the first thing I was thinking off was another policy of a scanlation group (one of my favourits [img]graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ) I once read that stated, that they aimed for scanlating "the lesser known mangas" and actually they were and are scanlating VERY know titles and didn't drop the scanlations when the titles became known and famous to start something absolutely new to the people.
seems that a group policy isn't something THAT strict and shouldn't be viewed as such [img]wink.gif[/img]

erm, ok, sorry, rather long answer...

what I actually wanted to say: don't take it to heart, irc (and certain scanlation groups) aren't user friendly, but all in all it's worth the effort for getting all that wonderful scans.
cheer up [img]graemlins/rose.gif[/img]

[crystalgryphon]

Actually, part of the point of the rant is that I should not post after 6:00PM. Ever. For any reason. I'm often irrational in the evening.

I was actually thinking of about half a dozen various groups when I wrote it. Yes, the quote is from the page of the group you named, but historically, one of the other yaoi groups has gotten equally as much on my nerves for the same reasons (both have been quite obnoxious toward non-IRC people), and there are some others that are almost as bad.

Simply put: I do think that some of the more uptight-about-distribution groups need to think *seriously* about why they're scanlating and why it is *so* important to them to get credit. That part is an ethical, more than a practical, question.

The ethics of distributing work done for free is always a slippery question--as a fanfic writer, I understand that. And a couple of years back, after a lot of serious thought, I concluded that it was *not* right or moral to refuse people the right to circulate or repost my fanfics, or even to refuse to let other fanfic writers use the original characters and situations I had created in their own 'fics--that is, to, in effect, refuse them the right to do *exactly what I was doing to the person whose universe I was writing the fanfics in*. So I changed that policy and went over to what amounts to an informal version of the Creative Commons attribution/non-commercial/share alike license.

To (mis)quote an old saying, sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander, too. It's only right. I can't force any scanlation group--or any other fanfic writer, for that matter--to conform to what I believe is ethical, but if I just stay quiet, groups that may have adopted a total-distribution-control policy in the name of getting credit *without thinking much about the relative importance of that credit or what they're really trying to accomplish* might never have any reason to rethink it.


As for IRC: I'm on a dial-up. I can't even reliably maintain an HTTP connection for files larger than a megabyte (I used to spend a lot of time breaking certain groups' indirection/download manager prevention scripts so that I could have a chance of actually getting the files)--my chances of getting stuff off IRC are effectively nil.

I can't afford a better connection--I'm in a smallish town, so my choices in that regard are somewhat limited, and my current job just doesn't pay very well (and even if it did, I'd rather put the money toward legit manga or anime products). That, combined with the fact that some groups have this habit of distributing the first few chapters of a title via HTTP and only *then* going to IRC-only accounts for the poor-me-whine undertone, and explains why I should never have posted the original screed in the first place--conflating the two issues muddies the first one.

[yukawai]

Hahaha, you certainly won't get banned for this message XD That I know of, we are allowed to rant, bitch, cry or be random about any topics on this board as long as we are polie or give appopriate warnings. *suddenly remember the loong random bitch corners Jadey and I used to make indeed* ^^;;

About your message: I found it interesting; thanks for bringing it up!

You raised strong points and defended lesser ones. I had thought about this issue before - each times I grit my teeth when I slam my nose on one of those policies in fact - and it was partially raised before in this board when Sc-net deceided to start distributing via mIRC (to the conclusion that they couldn't affort more space, not enought people proposed help, and the webmistresses really had no time anymore in the first place, IRC is easier in that way). I liked your opninion, in any case. ^^

Now, it is late here as well, so I apoligise if I babble incoherently. Please also overlook my bad english ^^;

* by 'team' I include the colaboration work of editors, cleaners, translators, scanners and what-not. The singular of the term is because I'm talking of them as a whole, big generalising here.


[edits and reformulate incessant round-a-round rant]
I agree it is a control of the scanlation by the team, though it is one they judged nessecery.

Their main reason is the fluidity of the inter net. In the same day, someone could download a file, post it all unzipped on his personnal site, another team could find it and deceide to translate it into another language in which the original manga has already been liscenced, making it illegal. This foreign team couldn't have seen the READ ME text included in the zip file has they had only found the pages. They could they thought the original was in english, or that they didn't know the laws. In retribution, the original scranslating team will find itself in big trouble for 'implicitly allowing another team to commit illegal actions'.

Don't choke, even though I haven't seen anyone get caught, I have witnessed the 'swaping languages in the same day as releasse' part. Thinking about it, even with the strict distribution policy I have seen a lot of scanlated chapters being unzipped and uncredited on the net. As you've pointed out, it is in the team's responsabilities to make sure everyone stops the distribution of, and gets rid of, the scanlated works if it gets published in their language. That would be made incredibly hard if everywhere they turned people right and left, big and small, zipped or not where sharing files. It could make it almost impossible to track down every last pages.

Of course, even having a better control have it's lapses, but a good deal less, and the team is just hoping nobody will see those they missed. For teams that scanlate fairly known and loved titles,
publishers would work on maybe half their projects. Those teams have to know where first to cut the distribution. They don't all have much personnal times to devote to this and they can't drag their feet much about it either.

The down side is aggravating: a lot less ways to pass on the works. I understand your anger, often share it, and agree with the main message I perceived in your posts: if they can maybe some teams should broaden their distributions ways or work harder to find solutions so that they could respect their goal to everyone and not just a choiced public.

To that extend I think many of the smaller, newer teams should get together and share their means; that way; as it is I know of a dozen of teams that only shares on IRC because it's easier, faster. In those cases, their lazyness cannot moraly override their promises. That solution would have the side effect of getting rid od a lot of little misunderstand between teams - troubles that shouldn't occur when everyone walks to Rome: sharing love.

However, more now-a-days solutions to our download problems are already en route. Shia named one: some teams that monopolised too much their results have been complained to and are starting to change their ways. A second one that I use often is to personnaly ask for the releases. Most of these teams have chats, bitTorrents, yahoo groups or such-as. In those, when asked politly, I usually find really nice people who are eager to send me the asked files via temporary links, emails, yousendit, etc.


All in all, your point is valid and very well worth discussing. I understand the getting-on-nerves factor, yet I also understand how some teams can't help it - to a certain extend. Lazyness, greediness or extreme possessiveness are no excuses. But then I fear we are falling into another related debate on "what is the goal of your team and are you really archieving it" based on last year's and continuying underground fights for titles.


PS: Sorry for the extra long post ^^;; I'm sure I'll reread this tomorow and find my points feebly explained or totally irrevalents. v_v;; But anyway, feel free to rant on any subject that bothers you (or makes you happy! ^^ ) here.

[Shia]

a thing I've been thinking about as well: I for my part think that the way of distribution should have nothing to do with the scanlation group's policy about reposting their work somewhere without credit and such.

what exactly is there to stop me from downloading their file from irc and stick it on my homepage if I feel like breaking their policy? [img]graemlins/wonder.gif[/img]
it's not as if those kind of people are incapable of using irc...

@ the crystal gryphon:
I can understand your point perfectly ^__^

beeing on a dial up and having problems with downloading sucks [img]frown.gif[/img]
but I'd advice you to start exploiting the nice manga community a bit
there's a hell lot of people out there that are willing to help; send you files, even burn the whole lot on cd and send it via mail and such.
uhm, ask and you shall be given, nee~? ^__^
solving your problem with getting files might be easier than solving the problem of bitchy scanlation groups [img]wink.gif[/img]

[crystalgryphon]

@Yue: Scanlating is illegal in the first place--it's the creation of an unauthorized derivative work, just like fansubbing, fan fiction and fanart--so the only way to be 100% legally safe with respect to it is not to do it, unfortunately. (What makes scanlation groups and other fan-creators 99% legally safe is the fact that most individual copyright holders can't be bothered to sue people over stuff like this, especially across international lines and a language barrier . . . but there're always a few people, usually publishers rather than the actual creators of works, that *can* be bothered. To some extent, you can predict who they're going to be based on previous behaviour, which is why I would never knowingly do any kind of fanwork for something that had trademarks or copyrights owned by, say, Nintendo Corp. of Japan, which had a doujin creator arrested and jailed a while back.)

The sort of aiding-and-abetting charge you describe is usually the sort of thing people add in when they've *already* decided to throw the book at someone, anyway--in other words, it's a lower risk than doing the original scanlation in the first place. And ironically, if the original group seeks no credit for having done the scanning, they can't be nailed for aiding-and-abetting anyway, because without watermarks on the images, there aren't any grounds for accusing them.

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@Shia: Remember that remark I made earlier about one group refusing to do any further work on a title because someone had ignored their control policy and reposted their files on a website? Anyone who remembered that incident would probably think twice before trying that trick again . . . although come to think of it, there might not be that many of them anymore, since that was a few years ago now.

As for me--I have real serious problems asking anyone for favours (including close RL friends and members of my immediate family). People spontaneously *offering* to help me tends to make me burst into tears--I'll leave it to you to imagine what happens when I try to *ask* for help.

(I also have the habit of, a few times a year, picking a windmill and tilting at it. This seems to have been my windmill of choice for this quarter. "Hear me now, oh thou bleak and unbearable world . . ." ;P )

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I do think that the metered-FTP option in particular has been overlooked and underused, though. There's this guy in Germany (? Austria? Some German-speaking country in Europe, anyway), who's been serving fansubs on an FTP from his home over ADSL and cable lines for at least four years now. Only 2-3 users allowed to login at a time, only 5KB/s bandwidth per user, and it's only up when the guy's awake, but the thing *works*--you *can* eventually get whole episodes off of it, if you're patient and persistent enough--and your average fansub file is some twenty times the size of your average scanlation file. It wouldn't be a very attractive option for those with high speed connections, but it could be a real help to people on low-speed ones, and one server could hold several groups' worth of work.